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Imani
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Post subject: 'Why Are We Still In The Streets?' by Nicholas Payton (2014) Reply with quote

At the beginning of June, when BLM & Antifa stepped to inflame an already volatile situation, I was reminded of a blog piece I'd read in 2014, written by the African American musician Nicholas Payton. Unfortunately the site it was originally published on is long since defunct, but his response then remains timely:

WHY ARE WE STILL IN THE STREETS?

'Why are we in the streets getting shot with rubber bullets and tear gassed? How long are we going to stay out there? Until Darren Wilson is charged, or until there is justice for Black America? Why are we so easily provoked by the same story time and again to the same end? It will not bring back the lives of the murdered. Marching on the government is an antiquated thing of the past. We’ve done that already and we’re still here. They’re repealing the same laws we marched for 50 years ago and we’re out in the street again.'

'No human being is capable of serving justice. No government department is capable of serving justice. Marching on the police for use of excessive force does nothing but give them license to use more excessive force. Don’t play that game. You can’t win. It will only result in more dead, Black bodies. You are worth more to Black America alive. Don’t needlessly sacrifice yourself for a lost cause.'

'Support your community. Learn your history so we don’t repeat the mistakes of the past. Don’t react; take action. It’s what we do everyday that counts most. Vacillating between states of either survival mode or crisis mode is no way to live. If we did the daily maintenance that it requires to sustain a community, we wouldn’t find ourselves doing damage control in situations of disquiet.'

'All of this railing against the system is bringing us nowhere and is expending energy that would be more useful in other spaces. Why do we keep fighting the oppressor’s war, on the oppressor’s terms, on the oppressor’s turf? To continue to have your buttons pushed and getting agitated about the same thing year after year is not what’s up. This is getting us nowhere. In order for something different to happen, we have to do something different. When is it going to be time to be reflective and meditative and create from a calm, cool-headed state of mind?'

'A mass movement is not going to work. Be a movement of one by living the values you espouse. Be an asset to your community by investing in yourself daily to be the best you you can be. The only person you’re guaranteed to affect change within is you. You can’t make your kids do anything. You can’t make your family do anything. You should not waste your time appealing to anyone who refuses to accept you. They have the right to feel how they want about you, just like you have the right to feel whatever way about them.'

'It’s all energy. When you oscillate on a certain wavelength, you will attract other like-minded spirits who oscillate on that same wavelength. But as long as you continue to be sucked in by oppressive forces, it takes you out of your bandwidth and puts you in somebody else’s. The distraction of this media narrative is as destructive as any military-grade weaponry, tanks, bombs, or the like. The external battlefield is just the physical manifestation of the inward war. If you stay tuned, you don’t have to be alarmed every time someone changes the channel.'

'To have peace in one place, there has to be war in another. “Peace” is just a piece of the story. If everything was good, nothing would be good. This isn’t a race, it’s a journey. Operating from a state of angst just creates more angst. Culture is our respite. The Blues is a cry of those silenced. Speak your native tongue, and if it’s been taken from you, grow another one. There is no end to the wellspring of art that exists inside your soul. Those who have no soul have a right to be as they are. Don’t trouble yourself trying to cultivate the spiritually challenged. Every moment away from nourishing your roots, your ancestry, is time you can’t get back.'

'Be like the drum who sings when beaten. Be like the owl which hoots in the night. Mourn like the river, and rise like the sun. The language of the ancestors reverberates like a constant vowel underneath the surface of this mirage of calamity. Tap in. They are speaking. Those notes unlock the mysteries of things seen and unseen. Those melodies are a gateway to freedom.'

'Colonialism is deafening. Don’t let your hearing become eroded by the static and spastic rhythm of false societal constructs. The boots on the ground approach to resistance will get you a kick in the head. The real march is a step inwards. Burning buildings is one thing; igniting the fire between your eyes is another.'
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Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:11 pm
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Harry
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Hugh has the answers...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZdf_cN5WFw
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Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:10 pm
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Imani
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Over the past month, more people saw how poisonous the woke movement is. Though having said that, they've played a few too many cards this time with their CHAZ commune, which isn't so different to Jonestown. Also all the statue destroying. If they were actually about creating a new and better culture, they'd have no need to destroy the old. However abhorrent the past was, it's there to be learnt from, and I'm suspicious of anyone who wants to remove it from memory under the cynical pretext of 'fighting racism'.
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Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:03 pm
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Harry
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Imani wrote:
Over the past month, more people saw how poisonous the woke movement is. Though having said that, they've played a few too many cards this time with their CHAZ commune, which isn't so different to Jonestown. Also all the statue destroying. If they were actually about creating a new and better culture, they'd have no need to destroy the old. However abhorrent the past was, it's there to be learnt from, and I'm suspicious of anyone who wants to remove it from memory under the cynical pretext of 'fighting racism'.


Please name some names. Who are you talking about? What old culture is being destroyed? Can you list three people you know who want to remove slavery from our memories?
In Germany children are taught about the holocaust and there's been a move to get colonialism and slavery taught in our schools. In Bristol the statue of a slave trader is being put in a museum and there's been talk of there being a new statue made of the local legend Paul Stephenson instead - what's wrong with that?
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Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:42 pm
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Trojan
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Imani wrote:
Over the past month, more people saw how poisonous the woke movement is. Though having said that, they've played a few too many cards this time with their CHAZ commune, which isn't so different to Jonestown. Also all the statue destroying. If they were actually about creating a new and better culture, they'd have no need to destroy the old. However abhorrent the past was, it's there to be learnt from, and I'm suspicious of anyone who wants to remove it from memory under the cynical pretext of 'fighting racism'.


The statues in question should not be destroyed. They should be placed in museums and viewed as historical artifacts and a reminder that history is not always pretty. Having them remain on elevated plinths in prominent public places is just a reminder of how most of the subjects attempted to exonerated themselves from their past deeds usually by making large charitable donations to local causes.

Removing statues those who had questionable views is a waste of time. Abhorrent views on race, gender etc were common place a few decades back never mind hundreds of years ago. However, statues of those who were mass murders or made fortunes from human suffering well and truly belong in museums.
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Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:55 pm
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Harry
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A while ago when we were discussing Douglas Murray's 'Madness of Crowds' I recommended a book called, "Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race" by Reni Eddo-Lodge.
The book came out 5 years ago but because people wanting to understand the Black Lives Matter movement were recommended this book it became a best seller. Renu Eddo-Lodge is the first black woman in this country to write a best selling book. This is a good thing.
On the 16th of June a ex police detective Bryn Male put on his Millwall T-shirt and went from his home in Hampshire to London to get drunk and shout "Fuck Black Lives Matter" when he fell over a Black Lives Matter Protester carried him to safety. The Daily Mail couldn't put a spin on this story and they wrote positive things about BLM's Patrick Hutchinson. This is a good thing.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8432939/White-activist-carried-safety-Black-Lives-Matter-protestor-retired-police-detective.html
Yesterday in the Evening Standard Emma Loffhagen wrote about how when she mentioned on twitter that she, a black woman, had received a first class degree from Cambridge she instantly got 100,000 likes and lots of messages from young black girls asking for advice. Loffhagen explains she applied after being given hope my finding out about a black woman on You Tube who had also gone to Cambridge ("you can only be what you see"). She also mentions how Stormzy is donating 50 % of his 20 million pound fortune to help BLM charities and scholarship schemes. These are good things. We don't want the U.K in 2020 to be a place where black households are twice as likely to live in poverty and twice as likely to be stopped by the police as their white counterparts and we don't want black people to think they have no chance of being accepted by this country's top universities.
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/how-i-beat-the-odds-at-cambridge-and-got-a-first-a4485656.html
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Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:35 am
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Imani
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Trojan wrote:
Imani wrote:
Over the past month, more people saw how poisonous the woke movement is. Though having said that, they've played a few too many cards this time with their CHAZ commune, which isn't so different to Jonestown. Also all the statue destroying. If they were actually about creating a new and better culture, they'd have no need to destroy the old. However abhorrent the past was, it's there to be learnt from, and I'm suspicious of anyone who wants to remove it from memory under the cynical pretext of 'fighting racism'.


The statues in question should not be destroyed. They should be placed in museums and viewed as historical artifacts and a reminder that history is not always pretty. Having them remain on elevated plinths in prominent public places is just a reminder of how most of the subjects attempted to exonerated themselves from their past deeds usually by making large charitable donations to local causes.

Removing statues those who had questionable views is a waste of time. Abhorrent views on race, gender etc were common place a few decades back never mind hundreds of years ago. However, statues of those who were mass murders or made fortunes from human suffering well and truly belong in museums.


Museums would be better though my approach would be to ignore the public statues. Even in the city where I live, there are streets and areas that are named after individuals who were little more than land-grabbing tyrants who kicked people off their land and made them work for nothing. This was the case all over what we now call the UK. But I see no point in changing their names. If the wealthy want to have some reminders of their forebears then they can, and they always will. I'll just focus my attention on historical figures that I respect.
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Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:22 am
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Imani
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Harry wrote:
A while ago when we were discussing Douglas Murray's 'Madness of Crowds' I recommended a book called, "Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race" by Reni Eddo-Lodge.
The book came out 5 years ago but because people wanting to understand the Black Lives Matter movement were recommended this book it became a best seller. Renu Eddo-Lodge is the first black woman in this country to write a best selling book. This is a good thing.
On the 16th of June a ex police detective Bryn Male put on his Millwall T-shirt and went from his home in Hampshire to London to get drunk and shout "Fuck Black Lives Matter" when he fell over a Black Lives Matter Protester carried him to safety. The Daily Mail couldn't put a spin on this story and they wrote positive things about BLM's Patrick Hutchinson. This is a good thing.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8432939/White-activist-carried-safety-Black-Lives-Matter-protestor-retired-police-detective.html
Yesterday in the Evening Standard Emma Loffhagen wrote about how when she mentioned on twitter that she, a black woman, had received a first class degree from Cambridge she instantly got 100,000 likes and lots of messages from young black girls asking for advice. Loffhagen explains she applied after being given hope my finding out about a black woman on You Tube who had also gone to Cambridge ("you can only be what you see"). She also mentions how Stormzy is donating 50 % of his 20 million pound fortune to help BLM charities and scholarship schemes. These are good things. We don't want the U.K in 2020 to be a place where black households are twice as likely to live in poverty and twice as likely to be stopped by the police as their white counterparts and we don't want black people to think they have no chance of being accepted by this country's top universities.
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/how-i-beat-the-odds-at-cambridge-and-got-a-first-a4485656.html


When a person assists someone in genuine need, they do so out of an innate humanity. They don't need doctrines or rules from a group they belong to, to guide and put provisos upon their actions. Nor do they need identity labels and slogans to advertise those actions! If more political, quasi-political (e.g blm) or religious organisations understood this, there'd be no need for them.

If I won ten million on the Euro Lottery, I still wouldn't donate a penny to that organisation. It produced a mob full of flagellants who could do nothing more than destroy property and occupy that which wasn't theirs.

Nice that someone has got a degree. Shame that university education has become nothing more than a woke fast track. Hopefully that will change.
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Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:44 am
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bombscare79
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"Nice that someone has got a degree. Shame that university education has become nothing more than a woke fast track. Hopefully that will change." .........Jesus What an utterly utterly reprehensible statement. So ALL university education just teaches students to be woke and nothing else? So should you cancel all Engineering medicine degrees. .......I have to think this is a wind up surely you couldnt be that daft could you? Woke? No, better informed to challenge the morally bankrupt in power
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Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:25 pm
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Imani
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This video of a recent blm/antifa demo in Canada typifies what’s wrong about the organisation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLzCkf6mebw

They targeted a small provincial town to ‘protest against racism’ apparently taking place there. A number of protesters were asked, quite reasonably, to cite incidents of racism and police brutality that had taken place in the town where they were staging the protest. None of them could cite a single one, and in a few cases became angry and verbally aggressive.

So, why were they there in the first place?

You might call it ‘the madness of crowds’. The vast majority of the protesters appear to be adults, not young and impressionable students who know no better than what their professors are teaching them.

But then anyone who’s ‘fighting racism’ surely MUST be doing something worthwhile? Not quite – not when they can cite no evidence to support their accusations. Otherwise what you get is the vigilantism of a group that seems more like a dodgy, brainwashed cult than anything else.

I know a lot of people can't find any fault with them, but it ain't for me. I prefer the kind of approach suggested by Nicholas Payton.
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Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:38 am
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Harry
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I watched the video from beginning to end. And I looked into Rebel News and saw their other reports. You like this video because it tells you what you want to hear. Rebel News don't let us see footage of the speeches but we get informed that there's an election coming up and that the people at this march are all liars or fools whose key interest is spreading the covid virus to vulnerable elderly people who are good. It's so ironic, over and over again you say this stuff about the people who believe that black lives matters have been "brainwashed" but you don't seem to realize that the point of Rebel News is to do just that. Previously you said those protesting had been "poisoned" and were trying to "remove history."
You hate Black Lives Matter. You said if you had a million pounds you wouldn't give a penny to a group like them. I notice now you're saying "I know a lot of people can't find fault in them" If you're asking me: Do black lives matter? My answer is yes but if you're asking me if the BLM organisation or The Labour Party or any political organisation since the beginning of time has any faults ,that's a very different question. You are the one who says BLM is a brainwashed cult with nothing good about them. You are the one trying to make us believe they are 100 % bad.
Rebel News hate leftie Trudeau because he lets Muslims into their country. In the same way Enoch Powell told white people if you let too many blacks into the UK the situation will be that they will put shit through your letterbox anyone who complains will be rebelled a racialist . Rebel News are there to tell people that Muslims will rape their children and if you complain you will be labelled a racist and it's political correctness gone mad. In Toronto, black people are 20 times more likely to be shot by police than white but in some sense what's really chilling is the deaths that aren't reported. In the Spike Lee film Malcolm X we see the KKK kill Malcolm's father by tying him to a railroad track. When his mother tries to get money from his life insurance she's denied because they say it's suicide. She argues how and why would a man tie him self to a train track but she doesn't receive a penny and her kids are taken into care. There is no evidence. In America the police try not to shoot blacks as they know it will be reported but they can get away with suicide and "accidents". Colin Roach (mentioned in the song Bright Lights) just walked into Stoke Newington Police Station and committed suicide there was nothing they could do. Smiley Culture asked to have his handcuffs taken off so he could use the loo but he then ran into the kitchen and stuck a bread knife in his tummy - there was nothing we could do. When these things happen the families ask for an inquiry and they are told they can't have one (just as Malcolm's mum can't have her compensation). The thing with George Floyd is that we saw what happened and then when there were riots we saw footage of black people calling the police because their shop was being smashed up then be arrested (as the police just assumed they were the trouble makers) there's clearly a problem. Just as there is a problem that in the U.S. the police who get caught doing bad things just get a job in another state.
There's a bit about Canada here:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/14/canada-systemic-racism-history
We all have gaps in our knowledge. I was quite shocked by how much I didn't know whilst watching the BBC doc: Britain's forgotten slave owners https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b063db18
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Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:10 am
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Imani
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I'm familiar with all of the information you shared, and more. I have no support for the organisation, full stop. However, I don't 'hate' them.

It's amazing that after months of governments telling everyone to stay indoors because of a fabricated story of a threat to lives (see Professor Neil Ferguson), there are still people who want to reduce everything to whites oppressing blacks.

So please spare me your latest historical findings, Harry, because your attempts to get me to recant my views are doomed to fail.
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Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:58 pm
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Imani wrote:

It's amazing that after months of governments telling everyone to stay indoors because of a fabricated story of a threat to lives (see Professor Neil Ferguson), there are still people who want to reduce everything to whites oppressing blacks.


Now I know that covid19 is bullshit, I'll cancel my order for face masks.
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Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:47 pm
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Harry
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You want to be like "the drum who sings when beaten and the owl who hoots in the night" so why post right wing propaganda from Rebel News?

In a previous post you said, "When a person assists someone in genuine need, they do so out of an innate humanity. They don't need doctrines or rules from a group they belong to, to guide and put provisos upon their actions. Nor do they need identity labels and slogans to advertise those actions! If more political, quasi-political (e.g blm) or religious organisations understood this, there'd be no need for them."

When you watched the BBC show where they read out the slave owners glee in torturing the slaves and getting people to shit in their mouth etc is there not a bit of you that questions the idea of "innate humanity"?
You introduced Payton as saying he was an "African American" in 1985 when Bill Cosby used this term people laughed at him. People like Cosby insisted they were not "coloureds" but "African Americans and by doing so he was "railing against the system" (the very thing Payton tells you not to do) Surely a large part of the 2-Tone movement was about railing against the system? Cliff Richard justified playing to white only audiences by saying when he was in South Africa he met a bell boy who was very happy and jolly. For him Apartheid wasn't a problem the Specials thought it was a problem and wanted to protest about it. Mandela himself said their song made a difference in educating people about his situation.
In your most recent post you're trying to make out that I'm trying to convert you but you're some sort of wise Obi-Wan Kenobi figure who has read everything and more and therefore can't ever be made to change his mind. I don't think that's such a great claim. “The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.” When you talk about BLM you just sound like a teenager whose spent half an hour watching Jim Davidson on You Tube
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Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:12 pm
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Imani
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There's a 1996 film documentary titled A Great and Mighty Walk, on the life and work of the historian John Henrik Clarke, and is narrated by Wesley Snipes.

See 1:21:04 to 1:23:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPTiiP3ZRA8

In this section, Dr Clarke's evaluation of the late 1960s Black Power and Black Panther movements offers an almost identical parallel to events of recent times under the aegis of Black Lives Matter.

He also compares the activities of those late 1960s black movements in America and the Caribbean with the way that Japan dealt with the tragedies of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and their subsequent meteoric rise as a nation. Rather than the Black Power movement's overly focus upon brash public displays and loud rhetoric - out of which no lasting changes nor improvement emerged - by contrast the Japanese quietly got on with the task of reconstruction, drawing upon their culture and creativity to do so.

I am not knocking the movements of yesteryear. They had their part to play and had some positive aspects to them. It's just that militancy and shock tactics ALONE simply doesn't work, it's been tried countless times and it's always failed. BLM and their cohorts are adopting the same approach, in a very different social climate, that didn't even work back then. But if you don't know history, you're doomed to repeat it. I would suggest that those funding and directing the course of the movement are far more historically-savvy than the protesters, because if the organisation was truly about improving the situation of black people, then it certainly wouldn't be using failed strategies towards this end.

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” - Buckminster Fuller (Which is basically a neat summary of what Payton says.)
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Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:19 am
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An interesting and considered take on all of this business from Sam Harris back in June. A long listen, but well worth a couple of hours of your time if you're concerned about what's happening and can listen with an open mind.

Making Sense with Sam Harris #207 - Can We Pull Back From The Brink? (June 12, 2020)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmgxtcbc4iU&t=1616s
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Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:19 pm
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Imani
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wally wrote:
An interesting and considered take on all of this business from Sam Harris back in June. A long listen, but well worth a couple of hours of your time if you're concerned about what's happening and can listen with an open mind.

Making Sense with Sam Harris #207 - Can We Pull Back From The Brink? (June 12, 2020)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmgxtcbc4iU&t=1616s


Thanks... just listening to it from the top now.
His intro on the toxic nature of social media and the way it hinders conversation is spot on.
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Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:31 am
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Imani
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Hmmm... 13 minutes in and the speaker has just lapsed into an anti-Trump tirade, suggesting the protests wouldn't be happening if he wasn't in power. I completely disagree. I'm not sure I'll listen to anything else, sorry Wally.

In the 80s it was the right who were the problem, also the 00s under Bush Jr. Now I view the left in the same way. And it'll change again in the future. For that reason I don't take a dogmatically left nor right view of things.
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Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:51 am
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wally
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Fair enough Imani, but I would suggest you continue listening, he says only that he's not sure if the protests would had got so out of hand had Trumo not been president. This is little more than an aside against the more important issues he discusses. Harris famously hold Trump in utter contempt but Trump is not the focus of this podcast. I've listened to Sam Harris a lot, and he's not partisan and is an avowed enemy of dogma.
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Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:36 pm
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Imani
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wally wrote:
Fair enough Imani, but I would suggest you continue listening, he says only that he's not sure if the protests would had got so out of hand had Trumo not been president. This is little more than an aside against the more important issues he discusses. Harris famously hold Trump in utter contempt but Trump is not the focus of this podcast. I've listened to Sam Harris a lot, and he's not partisan and is an avowed enemy of dogma.


OK, I'll have another listen tomorrow.
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Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:54 pm
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