As you can imagine, there are a lot of anti-Lydon Facebook groups that have sprung up, calling him a Nazi, fascist, etc.
Isn't this all a case of someone famous (but actually powerless) being used as a scapegoat for problems that have their causes with people in much HIGHER positions? It's as though the entire situation in the middle east is dependent upon whether JL plays a gig there or not. The power of celebrity, eh?
Many people say it's a betrayal of his punk roots - i.e he sang about 'anarchy', here he is advocating democracy. From reading his autobiography and seeing interviews, I never got the impression that he'd see himself as an 'anarchist'. He doesn't seem to want labelling at all, not even as a 'punk'!
No-one has mentioned that HEINEKEN are hosting this event. There are no calls for boycotting the product that refreshes the parts other beers don't reach. If anything, they ought to have been more targeted by protestors. But I think the Israel situation can cause people to react in a very black & white manner, there are many shades of grey. John Lydon always makes for interesting news articles too.
I take into account what's been said on the thread. In no way do I condone the way that Palestinians are being treated. I'm just adding another angle. _________________ How can I be anybody else?
I would say though that by saying a big fuck off to everybody and doing the gig regardless still shows that bit of punk spirit.
You have to remember as well these palestinians aint exactly angels. Suicide bombers, rocket launches, car bombs they've done the lot. There's always two sides to a story.
Funny he's being called a nazi. Hitler would have shot him for putting on a show for Jewish people.
Posted:
Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:17 am
Hugh Too Hot
Joined: 02 Apr 2004 Posts: 9234
Location: New Westminster, BC Canada
Post subject:
You don't ban music, even Country, Which Roddy likes.
The Wagon House. _________________ There's still nothing wrong with it!
Posted:
Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:22 am
Imani Special
Joined: 26 Apr 2008 Posts: 566
Location: Bradford
Post subject:
Iron_Man wrote:
Some good points there Imani.
I would say though that by saying a big fuck off to everybody and doing the gig regardless still shows that bit of punk spirit.
You have to remember as well these palestinians aint exactly angels. Suicide bombers, rocket launches, car bombs they've done the lot. There's always two sides to a story.
Funny he's being called a nazi. Hitler would have shot him for putting on a show for Jewish people.
All the points you've made are very true, nuff said! _________________ How can I be anybody else?
Joined: 02 Apr 2004 Posts: 9234
Location: New Westminster, BC Canada
Post subject:
The problem an artist faces is having his subject being cast in the first person. _________________ There's still nothing wrong with it!
Posted:
Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:55 am
Dell Too Hot
Joined: 11 Nov 2003 Posts: 3091
Location: Darlington
Post subject:
PiL are playing in Israel. Wow ! Get over it. Bad Manners played there too, during the 80s. What's the problem ? _________________ www.myspace.com/backdoorpromotions
Posted:
Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:26 am
Imani Special
Joined: 26 Apr 2008 Posts: 566
Location: Bradford
Post subject:
Dell wrote:
PiL are playing in Israel. Wow ! Get over it. Bad Manners played there too, during the 80s. What's the problem ?
Funny you mention that...in 1982, I recall reading in the music press about a festival in Tel Aviv which would have featured Bad Manners, Aswad and a few other bands I liked at that time. It never actually took place, for whatever reason. _________________ How can I be anybody else?
Joined: 11 Nov 2003 Posts: 3091
Location: Darlington
Post subject:
I was told that they played in Israel in the mid 80s. I cannot believe that I'm even writing about this ! _________________ www.myspace.com/backdoorpromotions
Joined: 22 Nov 2008 Posts: 144
Location: New York, NY
Post subject:
Boney M seem to have the right attitude about this. BTW I have not heard about any protests planned against them for playing in Palestine.....
"I believe you should entertain wherever you are asked to entertain, whether it is Israel, whether it is Palestine, whether it is Lebanon, where ever it is, we go," Williams said in Ramallah.
"At the end of the day, politics is one thing and entertainment is another thing and when I got into the entertainment business I didn't get into it for politics. I got into it to make people happy," she said.
Another thing to consider: if artists were to boycott performing in a particular country due to its 'domestic and foreign policies', I doubt whether there'd be anywhere for them to actually play. The Iraq & Afghanistan invasions haven't caused people to say, 'You shouldn't do concerts in the UK and the USA'. Yet using the same logic and arguments as those who say 'don't play in Israel', they would have a case.
Perhaps it's not always a good thing for artists to enter this area of politics. Music can actually accomplish much more than politicians in bringing people together. Simplistic as that may sound. _________________ How can I be anybody else?
Israel is not a 'normal' country so normal rules do not apply. If you are going to play there then you have to be prepared to severely criticise their regime for its 'foreign policy' and the way it behaves towards palestine and anyone else who questions their actions. Their indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force for example in recent years in Lebanon show where a persons nationality alone is reason enough to rain bombs down on them without any consideration as to whether you are a child or a woman at home with a young family, disabled or simply not interested in any cause. The United Nations amongst others have questioned the legality of some of their recent military actions under international laws and still they continue. How many people were killed in June on an aid ship travelling to Gaza all because " the soldiers had the wrong training"? If you are a fan of THE SPECIALS and you cant see what is wrong with Lydons statement then perhaps you should start listening to their albums all over again _________________ REALLY RUDE
Posted:
Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:20 pm
Imani Special
Joined: 26 Apr 2008 Posts: 566
Location: Bradford
Post subject:
bombscare79 wrote:
Israel is not a 'normal' country so normal rules do not apply. If you are going to play there then you have to be prepared to severely criticise their regime for its 'foreign policy' and the way it behaves towards palestine and anyone else who questions their actions. Their indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force for example in recent years in Lebanon show where a persons nationality alone is reason enough to rain bombs down on them without any consideration as to whether you are a child or a woman at home with a young family, disabled or simply not interested in any cause. The United Nations amongst others have questioned the legality of some of their recent military actions under international laws and still they continue. How many people were killed in June on an aid ship travelling to Gaza all because " the soldiers had the wrong training"? If you are a fan of THE SPECIALS and you cant see what is wrong with Lydons statement then perhaps you should start listening to their albums all over again
I'll repeat that IN NO WAY do I support the actions of Israelis towards Palestinians. Yet it also has to be said that Islamic governments are guilty of equally grotesque human rights abuses. A fact that seems to be 'unacceptable' to raise when we talk about Israel.
A lot of the venom against John Lydon appears to be more because he's an easy target, i.e. he went from 'Anarchy in the UK' to Butter adverts. And he's provocative, loud-mouthed and most important of all, he's famous - all of which also helps push people's buttons even more.
I understand the reality of high level politics. Those politicians are a 'law' unto themselves and no matter how much artists (or anybody) may care and are sincere, there are limits as to what they can do.
How many times have corrupt regimes been deposed, only for another set of thugs to get in power? It ALWAYS happens because this is the fundamental nature of the beast known as 'politics'.
I've never had much time for artists that take too much of an apolitical stance. At the same time, I feel that artists ULTIMATELY ought not be expected to bear the burden of responsibility for a country's situation. But it seems that they are. _________________ How can I be anybody else?
Israel is not a 'normal' country so normal rules do not apply. If you are going to play there then you have to be prepared to severely criticise their regime for its 'foreign policy' and the way it behaves towards palestine and anyone else who questions their actions. Their indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force for example in recent years in Lebanon show where a persons nationality alone is reason enough to rain bombs down on them without any consideration as to whether you are a child or a woman at home with a young family, disabled or simply not interested in any cause. The United Nations amongst others have questioned the legality of some of their recent military actions under international laws and still they continue. How many people were killed in June on an aid ship travelling to Gaza all because " the soldiers had the wrong training"? If you are a fan of THE SPECIALS and you cant see what is wrong with Lydons statement then perhaps you should start listening to their albums all over again
Yes and if you did you might realise that the Jewish people suffer just the same as the muslims. Palestine is governed by a terrorist group who has the destruction of the state of Israel in their constitution. What about our own foreign policy? Marching into other countries to force our views upon them as in Iraq and Afghanistan. Let's stop all UK gigs too then.
Posted:
Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:47 am
dan Too Hot
Joined: 17 Dec 2008 Posts: 1506
Post subject:
nobody has answered the point i was making which was that his statement, divorced from the rights and wrongs, was saying that its acceptable to subjugate innocents from one race or religion because other people with the same race or religion somewhere else have no record of democracy. Thats like saying Apartheid was acceptable because of idi amin.
I'm not having a go at him cos of butter adverts, i like the butter adverts! neither am i saying its all israels fault but that his reasoning was at best flawed. _________________ www.myspace.com/wearethedads www.punksnotdad.co.uk
Posted:
Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:11 am
Harry Gangster
Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Posts: 445
Location: London
Post subject:
Lots of people have a moment in their lives when they're in the middle of doing something they have done for years and they suddenly think, "hang on, what am I actually going along with and saying Yes to here?"
Paul McCartney had this over owning a farm filled with sheep and eating meat. From having been a meat eater all his life, one day he was in the middle of a sunday roast and he heard some animals outside and thought, I can't justify what I'm doing.
In the film about Ray Charles there's a scene where Quincey Jones is trying to persuade Ray to stop touring in parts of America where non whites are treated like 2nd class citizens. Charles arques all the points that have been raised here (I'm here to entertain and make people happy, I'm not a politician) etc but later in that film he has that moment where he suddenly gets what Jones has been saying.
I got the feeling that Costello had that same moment of clarity and that's why he pulled out of the show and issued a statement.
I hope Lydon has a rethink too. _________________ I got one art O'level it did nothing for me
Posted:
Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:14 am
Imani Special
Joined: 26 Apr 2008 Posts: 566
Location: Bradford
Post subject:
Taken from The CMU Website, 14 July 2010:
Lydon told 6music that his decision to play in Tel Aviv was not politically motivated. He said: "Of course, there are all sorts of terrible politics going on down there but there is just about all over the world. You cannot separate yourself from your audience because of the political powers that be. I mean, I'm anti-government - I have been all my life no matter where I go - and I shall be making that loud and clearly proud once I'm in Israel". _________________ How can I be anybody else?
Lydon told 6music that his decision to play in Tel Aviv was not politically motivated. He said: "Of course, there are all sorts of terrible politics going on down there but there is just about all over the world. You cannot separate yourself from your audience because of the political powers that be. I mean, I'm anti-government - I have been all my life no matter where I go - and I shall be making that loud and clearly proud once I'm in Israel".
Joined: 02 Apr 2004 Posts: 9234
Location: New Westminster, BC Canada
Post subject:
Anarchy for the Yoo-Kay. _________________ There's still nothing wrong with it!
Posted:
Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:53 pm
bombscare79 Ska Face
Joined: 15 Jun 2009 Posts: 133
Location: BELFAST
Post subject:
Yes and if you did you might realise that the Jewish people suffer just the same as the muslims. Palestine is governed by a terrorist group who has the destruction of the state of Israel in their constitution. What about our own foreign policy? Marching into other countries to force our views upon them as in Iraq and Afghanistan. Let's stop all UK gigs too then.[/quote] ----------------How the uk deals with terrorism and conflict is in a different league from Israel. I grew up in a violent society with armed men and women visible on my streets and the uk policy was usually arrest or eliminate the armed individual. Had they adopted the approach of Israel it would have been air strike the whole street and i would not be here to take part in this debate. I also regularly faced the assumptions that because i was a certain religion and from a certain area that i was a terrorist which appears to be the approach of Israel's military policy. It also has to be said that the indiscriminate launching of rockets from Palestine into Israel has to be condemned and i understand that no state can allow that activity to proceed unchallenged, but i question the methodology. I am also uneasy with how the Palestinian state is run, i never said dont play in Israel I merely think Lydon should be directing his criticisms towards the state of Israel. I also do not subscribe to the belief that politics should be kept out of music thats one of the reason why i enjoy the best band on the planet. _________________ REALLY RUDE
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